Indulge my vulgar curiosity, if you would...

[featherynscale]

I will be the first to admit that my grasp of the rules about socialization, and especially those about romantic/sexual/marital relationships is not very solid. So I was hoping that you lot could give me some sort of feeling for the question in my brain today. The question has to do with how to deal with the ex-whatever of someone who is your friend. If you are friends with someone, and they break it off with a person they are dating/sleeping with/married to/whatever, is it okay for you to pursue their ex? If you are the ex-whatever of someone, are you offended if they date/sleep with/marry/whatever someone else?

I'm not asking this because I'm interested in pursuing anybody's ex. I'm not interested in how I should be relating to the people who are currently hooked up with any of my exes. I'm not passing judgment on anybody's behavior, or inviting others to do so. I'm just curious, and I don't know what people percieve the rules to be on the thing. Please help?

[Poll #940484]

Comments

[saffronhare.livejournal.com]

This is one of those areas where it always depends on some other shading of relationships. If both people of the deceased relationship (dating or married) still travel in the same social circles, then one would perhaps want to maintain some amicability in any new dating paradigm. You know, and *talking* to the people involved. But I bet you already knew that. :)

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

You know, and *talking* to the people involved.
Yeah, of course. I'm just trying to get a glimpse of the general principle, independent of who the hypothetical people are.

dick dick dick dick

[saffronhare.livejournal.com]

I don't know if there *is* a general principle involved here, other than your overall laudable ambition to Avoid Being a Dick Monster. (an unfortunate pun, but there you go).

I'm interested in watching these results, since it's a well-documented fact that my sense of being a dick can vary wildly from other folks' assumptions about me not being a dick.

Ahhh. My day is complete, since I've found a way to say "dick" several times...none of them in a company meeting. Thank you. :)

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

My personal feelings about the dating thing have to do with several factors:

Loyality, this has to do with how the breakup happened. If the guy dumped me, cheated on me, or somehow betrayed me, I expect all my friends to think he's pondscum.

Longevity... I never get the idea that if someone dates once then they are off limits to all friends and family. If it was a fling, nothing serious, a few dates... then he/she is fair game. If it was long term and it's going to be hurtful to see this person at gatherings and events, then it should be considered carefully

Do Leopards, change their spots??

[teross50.livejournal.com]

I would agree, it is almost case by case., I believe, very much in asking or, expressing to the friend, your interest in their partner, Nobody likes going to the party, and the ex showing up with the friend, and being the last to know. Or finding out, “Oh, and he fucked you to”. In close circles there is always going to be a degree of the Soap Opera scenario,[.” Days of our lives”, as it were, oh she is dating him now. Well that's interesting. I to would have to consider, how the relationship ended. If he/she fucked her/him over, leopards, just don't change that many spots.

[tsninja.livejournal.com]

I got in a lot a lot of trouble with this one a couple of years ago. Honestly, it's cause I wasn't thinking rationally, I was thinking "Boy I wish this could work and so I'm going to ignore all evidence to the contrary".

If there is any, any reason at all that your friend is going to be upset by you dating the other person, you should avoid the situation altogether. The longer a person stays with somebody else, the more likely there's going to be baggage you can't get over, and that you may not be able to see it coming. So that's my explantion for checking "No dear God don't ever ever ever date the ex-spouse of a friend of yours." Not if you want to keep that friend, anyway.

Marrying the best friend of your dead husband may be weird, but it's still fairly acceptable and only reasonably hairy. I mean, he's dead.

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

Being Southern myself, I can't answer the questions with the options given. All of the "no" answers seem to indicate that the only reason for "no" would be betrayal of the friend, and I think there are other considerations that might make it improper and to which people might be tempted to scoff, "Meh. Ettiquette. Couldn't be arsed." And still might be improper despite what they say. < /Miss Manners >

Having said that, if you, as a friend, watched me, as a friend, go through a horrible break-up and knew very well why I was no longer with the asshat, I might not think you were a bad person for attempting a relationship with him. I might, however, consider you too stupid to want as a friend anymore. Hypothetically speaking, and if it were that sort of break-up.

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

See, that's almost the clause about dismemberment. I'm assuming that for some people, it might be okay if the relationship were called for lack of interest, but not for other reasons. Of course, it's possible that the person listed as 'friend' in the example was a complete and utter asshat, and screwed over the person listed as 'ex', too. In my brain, that would be very different, too.

[brandy22kc.livejournal.com]

i think it depends on why it ended, and if both friends are ok, i mean if your friend broke up with them cause they were abusive...heck no but if it was just a it didn't work out ended on good terms not so bad, but if they were married it's a little weird

Being recently divorced...

[niveus-tigris.livejournal.com]

I'd articulate the following:

If the relationship ended badly and you value the friendship you have with the one, don't date the other. Even just sleeping with them casually is probably out. Even continuing to be friends with them may be problematic due to awkward social interactions.

If the split was mutual and there was no Drama involved (I hear that happens sometimes) then I'd say you should ask if your friend would be offended. You're more likely to get an honest answer to that question a while after the relationship ended.

If both of the people involved saw the relationship as casual and never anything serious, then there should be no offense taken when another person asks them out.

Should you ask out the ex of a friend and they cause Drama over it when you think they should not, you may want to reconsider that friendship.

Not that I'm an expert about social interaction, that's just my $1.25

Yale~

Re: Being recently divorced...

[next-bold-move.livejournal.com]

This was precisely what I was going to say.

Re: Being recently divorced...

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

Who is the one, and who the other, in your first para?

Re: Being recently divorced...

[niveus-tigris.livejournal.com]

The one is your friend and the other is their ex.

[ysabel.livejournal.com]

I should add that my views on this subject are probably not terribly mainstream. My only real limit on 'is it okay to date someone' is 'if they have a partner or partners, said partner/partners must not be being deceived about my presence'. Well, and the person I'm dating's informed consent, obviously.

[ysabel.livejournal.com]

That said, demonstrating assholishness during a breakup is a great way for me to go 'hrm, not interested in you now'.

But that's really peripheral to your question, I think.

[celticwhistlin.livejournal.com]

I agree with what others have stated.

If it was a casual thing, ask. They may not care; go forth. They may care; save the friendship or date, choose.

The divorce issue may be a bigger deal. I do think perhaps the same rules apply. They may not care; go forth, etc.

Dating the widow/er may be weird, but if there are feelings there... go forth.

I have had one friend tell me that if cerrunos were ever to die and I really needed a good fuck, she would let me borrow her hubby. Fortunately for all of us, he's not really my type.

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

Damn it, LJ ate my comment.

In a nutshell:

Propriety be damned, the only important consideration is my friend's permission. In the absence of an explicit statement in this regard, I should assume the more restrictive possibility and keep it in my pants.

If he's dead, then he has no feelings to consider.

[rio-luna.livejournal.com]

as long as enough time has elapsed. which in some cases should be years and in some a week will do. but no 'vulturing' over the dying relationship, dat's tacky (and happens all too often...)

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Unsurprisingly, I pretty much said "maybe" all the way through, except with widows/widowers because the social dynamic there is a little different. Most of the time, there's some way that it might be acceptable to date your friend's ex, but the circumstances of such vary so wildly from person to person that I can't really fathom how to generalize it. Asking the friend is good. Not vulturing is a must. Waiting until they are 'over' the person, or at least the breakup is no longer messy and complex, is always a good idea.

[liquidfun.livejournal.com]

I've never really understood what was considered "appropriate" here myself.

Then again, I can think of a couple prominent instances where I started dating friend's "currents" rather than "exes", and I no longer have those friends, so apparently that is definately taboo.

[liquidfun.livejournal.com]

I'm not asking this because I'm interested in pursuing anybody's ex.

Not even if I beg?

Sometimes I can't help myself...

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

Depends. Who taught you to beg, and are you any good at it?

Re: Sometimes I can't help myself...

[liquidfun.livejournal.com]

"taught"?

My begging is an innate talent, honed over the years by extensive practice.

As for "good", bite your tongue, I'm "awesome" at begging.

Actually, don't bite your tongue, I've got plans for that organ ...

All right, I'm gonna get myself in trouble ... and I certainly don't need to be lit on fire. Not this moment, anyway.

Re: Sometimes I can't help myself...

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

Heh. I haven't set anyone on fire in years. I'm perfectly harmless. (Ha! One of those statements is true. Care to guess which one?)

Re: Sometimes I can't help myself...

[wildnsquirrelly.livejournal.com]

No.

Re: Sometimes I can't help myself...

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

Aw, come on! :P

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't be "pursuit" then, would it?

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, see, I have no question about that. Thou shalt not go after anybody's current without permission from everybody involved.

[kellan-m-solan.livejournal.com]

This is easy for me to answer for myself regarding my friends. But I am acutely aware that those answers are NOT applicable to other folk or even to friends I might acquire in the future. But, I never quite understood 'loyalty' as a reason not to date someone's ex. There might be a courtesy issues here ("you aught to ask, since that's the polite thing to do"), but I wouldn't be prepared to disown a friend simply because they were not courteous in a single instance (habitual discourtesy might be a sign of something else, itself worth ending a relationship over). I would seriously question the validity of any friendship that required constant 'proving' with signs of loyalty in every little thing. The measure of a friend, in my opinion, should be "can I trust this person to watch my back, even when there's nothing in it for them" for some friends that might be physically, for others socially, mentally, etc. Not "oh, he dated my ex way too soon, the bastard!"

Regarding 'waiting periods' my only position is that the relationship has to be over. Anytime you are told as much by both parties (while sober?) you're golden. Failing that you have to wait for a sure sign. I would consider 'papers filed' a sure sign. You might very well die of old age waiting for legal garbage to get cleared away...

[chainwoman.livejournal.com]

"Is it okay to date your friend's ex-boyfriend or ex-girlfriend?"
Is it okay to date a friend's ex-husband or ex-wife, following a divorce?

It depends on whether or not your friend is over said ex or not. If you guys are close enough, just ask if they mind.

"In considering your answer to the first question, does it matter how the relationship ended?"

I said yes because if they person was dumped chances of them not being over said ex are greater.

"At what point might it be okay to date your friend's ex-spouse?"

I personally would not date them until everything legal was taken care of because I am aware of the legalities that could come into play and that just ain't worth it. If everything was legal and my friend was still not over them I would not go for them 'til my friend was cool with everything. However, I morally see no harm if both parties have decided it's over and your friend is cool with you dating them you doing so before it is legal. Just not the wisest way to go about it when it comes to the law.

[celticwhistlin.livejournal.com]

I personally would not date them until everything legal was taken care of

And I guess this whole discussion is moot regarding cerrunos and I due to the fact that I was not friends with his ex. ;-p

[chainwoman.livejournal.com]

huh?

[celticwhistlin.livejournal.com]

I dated D before his divorce was final... never mind. :-)

[chainwoman.livejournal.com]

Oh, ok. Yes not knowing the ex makes things a lot easier... Unless kids are involved, which in your case they weren't... So, um, friend or not, I still would wait for the legal part, but thanks to the line of work I am in I only get to see the horrible parts of what happens when one trusts another's word that turns out to be false...

[opaljax.livejournal.com]

Hm. Pretty much what everyone else said. (Damn you people with too much time on your hands, and access to LJ at work :D) If, however, anyone wanted to date my ex, I say more power to them. If, though, you (and I say you, using you as an example) were to actually (through a view of hell) wanted to date my ex, I might have the unfortunate view of you being slightly lower on the sexy/intelligent/fantastic meter. (Not that you would ever, in a million years want to date my ex, it was an example.)

[chainwoman.livejournal.com]

LoL You can keep your ex honey. ;-)

[agrnmn.livejournal.com]

It only matters if you care what your friend and others think.

[matchgirl42.livejournal.com]

I view it as a case-by-case thing, really. Also, I would preferably check with/get permission from my friend first(sometimes it doesn't work out that way, though). You know, "hey, would you be okay if this happened?" In reference to recent events(and actually the only time this has come up in my life, thankfully enough), I knew before I even broached the subject to you that you would be okay with it. You know, other than being worried you might think I was crazy, but hey, you didn't, so that's all good, ya know?

[orcjohn.livejournal.com]

Take it case by case. If mutual boredom then you are free and clear. If other then you probably need to talk to the ex (who may or may not be ok with it). Mostly I'd say be careful and realize that this may end up losing you a friend, whether you actually date the person's ex or not.

As for the widow/widower, I'd say you were ok asking (after a suitable waiting period).

[capriciouslass.livejournal.com]

Many have weighed in with good opinions. I wasn't sure if my opinion could be given without it being colored by recent events.
However, I'm in the camp that openness is better in this type of situation. It would be better to ask your friend first.
I also agree with fionnabhar in that if you knew the circumstances, those circumstances were bad, yet you still wanted to date the ex there would be significant loss of respect due to lack of intelligence.

[duriyah.livejournal.com]

I'd say it depends on the nature of the friendship, and how close you and your friend are. It also depends greatly on the circumstances of the breakup.

[iron-clad.livejournal.com]

It depends. If it was an amiable break up and your friend is cool with it then yes. If the person was a total physco hose beast douche nozzle fuck tard to your friend then no.

[crookedface.livejournal.com]

I'm of the firm opinion that each person is responsible for their own relationships and don't require the consent of anybody else to enter into one. I have two ex-wives, I'm on reasonably good terms with each of them, and I don't care who they date; if a buddy of mine could make a go of it with one of them, I'd be happy for them!

I'm likely an outlier on this. I figure everybody warrants some basic compassion, so if they can manage to work a relationship where I couldn't, all the better for them. Who am I to try to tell them they can't--or worse, try to coerce them into not doing it by withdrawing my friendship. I'd say if you feel the need to withdraw friendship from another because they're chasing their bliss, there's something wrong with you.

But I'm just a curmudgeon.

Exes need love too.

[wildnsquirrelly.livejournal.com]

I gave as many of those questions as possible a bona fide 'Yeah, sure'. Of course, if you really concerned about anyone being hurt or just generally feeling awkward there'll be tons of communication involved (duh), but I'd even go so far as to say that getting together with the ex of a good friend that ended that relationship poorly might be Ok if it's more physical than anything else. But then, I'm weird & detached about that stuff. And since I suspect it'll prompt you to ask if I think it's less Ok to see a friend's ex if there's more of an emotional attachment involved, I'd say Yes. Clarification: IMHO, if it's just sex that's Ok. If it's a deeper, more emotional relationship, that's less Ok.

But then, to agree with everyone else, these things need to be decided on a case-by-case basis.