featherynscale: Schmendrick the magician from The Last Unicorn (Default)
featherynscale ([personal profile] featherynscale) wrote2007-08-16 09:38 am

Shiny shiny things, and cleaning up my language

We picked up our rings yesterday, yay! And, extra special bonus: Both of my rings fit, despite the fact that I forgot which hand I'd ordered the first ring for, and had to guess about which hand to order the second ring for.

With that delightful announcement out of the way, I have a (completely unrelated) challenge for myself:
On our trip back from Denver, I told [livejournal.com profile] kittenpants about E-prime, a variant of the English language in which a speaker or writer cannot use any form of 'to be' - no 'is', 'was', 'will be', or related construction has a place. This forces a writer to use an active voice (which also implies that a writer cannot hide the actor in a sentence -- if you need something, you have to say "I need this" rather than "this is needed" and so on). It also clears up some linguistic entanglements and forces a speaker to separate traits/conditions from behaviour (i.e. you can't say "John is an asshole", but you can say "John said rude things to me on the phone again").

I had the habit of speaking and writing in E-prime for quite a while, but have drifted away from it in the last year or two. I find that training myself to think in E-prime has a positive effect on my magical practice (and on the clarity of my communication in general), so it seemed like a good idea to try and go back to it.

So I think that for the next thirty days or so, at least, I will try to use E-prime for all my writing. I find it more difficult to do it speaking, so I will also practice that, but don't want to set a firm goal about it. I trust that you lot will point out where I fail, won't you?

EDIT: I do, of course, except fiction from this challenge, as I have spent enough time polishing that style that I don't want to lose it. I also except Balderdash answers, since apparently people already try to guess the answer by determining which answer they think I wrote, and I hate to make things too easy. :)

EDIT: Thanks to the people who caught me screwing up *my example*. I have gotten so far out of the habit of this that I totally missed it. Sheesh.
ext_3038: Red Panda with the captain "Oh Hai!" (Default)

[identity profile] triadruid.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 03:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Wait, how does "John was rude" fit E-prime?

I can see some exceptions, for instance, doesn't "John acted rude" essentially the same thing? You're putting intent on someone else that they may not have actually had... maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[identity profile] kittenpants.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)
The English verb for rudeness is inherently compound -- You don't rude, you are rude to. But yes, I think "John acted rudely" would be the better example. Even better would be "John said rude/hurtful things" to get even cleaner.

[identity profile] rfunk.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 05:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Is "is rude" a compound verb, or just an adjective with "is" used an assignment operator? I think of it more as the latter.

[identity profile] kittenpants.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 05:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you're right. 's what I get for clocking more hours studying foreign languages than I have studying English.

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
See, I said I needed to have people review me, to make sure I was doing it right. :)

"John said rude things to me on the phone" makes a much better example.

[identity profile] fionnabhar.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Even better: John behaved rudely.

[identity profile] fionnabhar.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 03:35 pm (UTC)(link)
"John is an asshole", but you can say "John was rude to me on the phone again."

"Was" is a past tense form of "to be." "Was rude" isn't using "was" as a modal, it's a verb plus predicate adjective.

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 03:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I totally blew that one, and in an example, too! Thanks for pointing it out. I'll edit it, above.

[identity profile] crookedface.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 04:02 pm (UTC)(link)
For most of the writing I do these days, E-Prime just doesn't work well--even the variation that allows "be" statements about identity and geography ("This is Overland Park"). There are still times I find it useful--and sadly, I'm not in practice to pull it off perfectly at those times.

It could also prove interesting to consciously meta-model communications for a couple of weeks. Not ask all the questions of other people, certainly--no need to incite the lynch mob--but to mentally review all of the distortions and deletions and generalizations and nominalizations and such when you hear, write, or speak them.

Heh. I may just practice some E-Prime, now, myself.

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 04:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't want to do it forever. As you say, expressing location presents huge difficulties, and overall, it sounds stilted and overly formal. I do want to have the ability to do it at need, though, which requires occasional in-depth practice.

Also, I like your suggestion of meta-modeling casual conversation. I expect that would yield some interesting insight. Maybe I will try that next! :)

[identity profile] celticwhistlin.livejournal.com 2007-08-18 04:39 pm (UTC)(link)
expressing location presents huge difficulties

Wouldn't "We/you are in " satisfy the requirement, or not?

[identity profile] kenllama.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
::I also except Balderdash answers::

I sooo want to play language-oriented games with you all =)

In the less-magically relevant and also a curious endeavor: language of no verb. once, in england, no verbs in our house all day. challenging, entertaining, and very circumlocutionary. surprisingly meaningful conversations, too...

I'm a big fan of the active voice; I've vaguely heard of E-prime before, and have never tried pursuing it completely. Passive voice lets us off a lot hooks. (Lois McMaster Bujold has a beautiful, comic example of this in her book Brothers in Arms, and sadly I can't find the snippet online at the moment. It entails an enlisted soldier reporting to his CO after he and his friends laid waste to a liquor shop on shore leave. It went something like: "'Words were exchanged. Weapons were drawn. Shots were fired.' Miles noted the sudden absence of any actors in all of this action."

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I could add you to the Balderdash game, if you like.

I don't know that I really enjoy the active voice in an aesthetic way - in fact, I think all active all the time in speaking, particularly, makes you sound sort of autistic - but I do understand how assistance in organizing my thoughts I get from it. (And the example you give made me laugh! I have had that very experience, in which passive voice totally means "I refuse to admit to anything that just happened. As a matter of fact, I stood on the corner and minded my own business the entire time...")

I have also done the no-verb thing, but mostly for comic effect. I had a friend in high school named Steve, who would drop into the no-verb speech when he felt like he had too much to do, as if he had so much going on that he had no time for verbs, and we all did it in solidarity from time to time. :) Not a lot of meaningful conversation, but what do you expect from high-schoolers screwing around? :)

balderdash

[identity profile] kenllama.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 08:41 pm (UTC)(link)
so the balderdash is an online thing? sounds dangerous!
sure -- deal me in =)

Re: balderdash

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I added you to the filter. You could drop in and vote (http://featherynscale.livejournal.com/496176.html) in this round, if you like.
ext_3038: Red Panda with the captain "Oh Hai!" (calico davy flint.. at yer service)

this be a language hijack!

[identity profile] triadruid.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Or Acrophobia, if you're interested...

Re: this be a language hijack!

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Speaking of... 2:28 has come and gone. :)
ext_3038: Red Panda with the captain "Oh Hai!" (Default)

Re: this be a language hijack!

[identity profile] triadruid.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
*laugh* Addict. I was going to wait until morning, but since you asked so nicely...

multiple uses of Be

[identity profile] rfunk.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 05:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I had this half-written, then read the wikipedia article, which addressed many of my thoughts. So I'm starting over...

Wikipedia lists five uses of Be, and says that identity (noun be noun) and predication (noun be adjective) are considered especially bad by E-Prime advocates. Your description and examples focus on avoiding predication and auxiliary (passive voice). Yours makes more sense to me -- I don't see why identity is supposed to be bad.

Of course, WP also lists location as one use, and that seems to me just a special case of predication, where the adjective is a prepositional phrase about location. (Ack, now I have "ablative of location" in my head. Latin class infected my brain.)

Re: multiple uses of Be

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I do also have an issue with the identity use that you list, but I didn't include it in my set. I don't encounter it as often as I do the predication (I didn't know that word before! Yay learning!) and passive-voice things that annoy or confuse me, but it goes something like this:

E-prime prevents you from saying things like "I am an artist" -- instead, you have to say things like "I make art". In theory, this means that in order to claim the implied 'artist' status, you have to actually 'make art'. An outside observer can't tell if you 'are an artist' or not, but they generally can tell if you 'make art' (because you can show them that). So it adds a dimension of honesty to language.

Other people might have other problems with the identity 'to-be', but I think I only have that one. If I think about it more, I might come up with others.

Re: multiple uses of Be

[identity profile] fionnabhar.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)
While I agree that active is usually a better style choice than passive, I have to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with linking verbs. They are neither active nor passive because the convey no action whatsoever. That's the whole point of having them. They denote condition and relationship, all good things that often need to be communicated.
ext_167746: Slice of the City (Default)

[identity profile] theslice.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
But what if John actually *is* an asshole and that's a central character trait and you have to convey that fact?
ext_3038: Red Panda with the captain "Oh Hai!" (Default)

[identity profile] triadruid.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 06:38 pm (UTC)(link)
But I don't think you can demonstrate definitively that he IS an asshole (that he has one, yes, but there's proctological exams involved). You can, however, demonstrate instances in which he has acted in the manner of an asshole, said things in an asshole tone of voice, and otherwise build the case for the listener to come to their own conclusion.

I think, if I understand this correctly, a lot of it is about not making assumptions about what is truth and what is opinion.
ext_167746: Slice of the City (Default)

[identity profile] theslice.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 07:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Sounds like it becomes more like a Viking edda or the Tamarian language where somewhere in the far past, Ug acted like an asshole, so much so that when you described Ug to your compatriots you'd have a long list of actions that "proved" he was indeed, an asshole. As time passes, the word "Ug" becomes a synonym for that long list. Sooner or later, you can say, "John embodies Ugness" or some sort. So therefore, while it may be opinion, the proof lies in cultural history more than having to write a mathematically-correct proof to say who someone is.

[identity profile] featherynscale.livejournal.com 2007-08-16 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] triadruid has it. You can't make the judgment for other people, but you can tell them 'I've always seen John act like an asshole. He says rude things to me on the phone. He steals candy from babies, and he pisses on car tires when he has had too much to drink', or whatnot. You strengthen your case through proof, but you still leave room for the other person to decide about John.